O Please! Obama and the Environment

Crossposted on Pennsylvania for Al Gore

Last week, during the runup to Live Earth, a few of the Democratic candidates for President did what they could to associate themselves with the event, in an effort to woo those Democratic voters who see the environment as their top priority (I count myself amongst this group). And while some of these efforts seem noble enough, others make me want to throw something. That "other" is none other than media darling, and vanguard of the "new" kind of politics: Barack Obama. On Obama's Live Earth page, which appears to be called "O Live Earth", Obama has this to say:

Our dependence on fuels such as oil and coal is jeopardizing our planet, setting off a chain of dangerous weather patterns that could condemn future generations to global catastrophe. We see the effects of global climate change in our communities and around the world in record drought, famine, and forest fires. Hurricanes and typhoons are growing in intensity, and rapidly melting ice sheets in Antarctica and Greenland could raise global sea levels high enough to swallow up large portions of every coastal city and town.

Despite the urgency, there are those who believe America cannot come together to find a solution. Politicians are afraid to ask the oil, auto, and electricity industries to do their part, and those industries hire armies of lobbyists to make sure it stays that way.

Ok. That sounds reasonable enough, and I for one agree with everything that he said. The only problem is that he seems to think that Democratic voters are, for lack of a better term, brain dead, because the following article is also linked to on his Presidential Campaign site. The article discusses Obama's environmental stance and his continued support of forking over BILLIONS of dollars to the coal industry, in the form of subsidies for Coal-to-Liquid "research" and "implementation".
While Obama scored green points over the weekend, his stance on liquefied coal remains a sticking point with many environmentalists such as Erich Pica, spokesman for Friends of the Earth.

"I don't think you can be serious about global warming and support technologies like liquid coal," Pica said.

Obama drew the wrath of many environmental groups, an important constituency of the Democratic Party, when he and Sen. Jim Bunning (R-Ky.) introduced legislation earlier this year that would provide loans to build large-scale coal-to-liquid plants and allow for them to use federal land.

Obama's sponsorship of the proposal and the criticism he received for it was a classic example of a presidential candidate torn between the needs of his home state and the demands of influential national interest groups.

The development and spread of coal-to-liquid fuel processing plants could revive the domestic coal industry, which is an important part of the economy of southern Illinois. National environmental groups, however, say the fuel would accelerate global warming dramatically.

Now, there have been claims by the Obamaniacs that their hero had "seen the light" and moved on to take a rational position on Coal-to-Liquid: since it cannot, under any circumstance, emit less carbon than fuel, than Obama would just have to reject it. And after all, he did say he wouldn't support anything that didn't produce 20% less carbon than liquid fuel.

Ted Glick, the national coordinator for the U.S. Climate Emergency Council, said Obama has moderated his support for technology that would manufacture liquid fuel from coal. But Glick said he is not satisfied with Obama's position and that
it contradicts his statements on global warming.

"We don't think anyone who 'gets it' on global warming should be supporting any money going into coal-to-liquid research," he said. "We do think it is inconsistent."

So he will only support CTL if some fantasy about CTL technologies would come true. But since we don't live in a fantasy world, and CTL CANNOT, under any circumstances, create a fuel that emits less carbon than liquid gas, than Obama would just HAVE to pull his support from the bill, right?
Obama's spokesman, Ben LaBolt, said his boss still supports the legislation he introduced with Bunning in January. But LeBolt said that Obama only would support coal-to-liquid fuel programs that produce less pollution than regular gasoline.

"Sen. Obama believes that America should both pursue energy independence and fight climate change," LeBolt said. "He supports research into all potential sources of energy, including solar, wind and coal. But his support for coal-to-liquid fuels is dependent on whether we can capture and sequester enough carbon that [we can] produce fuels that have 20 percent lower emissions than gasoline."

In a statement released before the Senate energy debate, Obama announced that he would only support the development of coal-to-liquid fuels if they emitted less global warming-linked carbon than conventional fuels.

Does Obama think Democratic voters are that stupid? Does he really think that we too watch Fox News and sit idly by while politicians push on with their Assault on Reason? Well, given that he still seems to garner about 20% of Democratic primary voters, I guess there are a few closet Fox watchers amongst us.



Display:


Re: O Please! Obama and the Environment (2.00 / 2)

I read on politico he also accepted Pharma pac money,and he claims he doesn't.


by lara on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 12:25:37 PM EST

Do you have (none / 0)

a link for that?  What is the story?  Is that speculation or hard data?  


by littafi on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 03:53:12 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: O Please! Obama and the Environment (3.00 / 0)

Obama accepts no PAC money for his presidential bid.


by Adam B on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 05:20:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: O Please! (3.00 / 2)

You start off pretending you're going to be reasonable and end up yelling about Fox News and the like.  Look at your first quote:

Despite the urgency, there are those who believe America cannot come together to find a solution. Politicians are afraid to ask the oil, auto, and electricity industries to do their part, and those industries hire armies of lobbyists to make sure it stays that way.

That's the voice of someone who is serious about solving this Global problem and not afraid of the challenge of it.  I would like to know how your approach is going to stop China and India from expanding their coal plants using outdated technologies that the Coal industry will look to sell them?  Apparently some Democrats are that stupid.  Obama has the guts to stand up and say we better do something about Coal besides ignoring it and pretending it's just going to go away.


by DD2 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 01:02:57 PM EST

Re: O Please! (none / 0)

I would like to know how your approach is going to stop China and India from expanding their coal plants using outdated technologies that the Coal industry will look to sell them?
You're kidding, right? You really think this is about helping China and India, and not  the American Coal Industry, and its supporters?

And anyway, if you were actually serious about reducing carbon emissions, both at home and abroad, you'd listen to Congressman Ed Markey, when he recently wrote:

There are two main issues at play here: "coal-to-electricity" and "coal-to-liquids." Capturing carbon pollution from coal and sequestering it deep underground would make it possible to continue to use coal as a major electricity source; turning coal into liquid to replace gasoline, diesel, and jet fuel would, according to the EPA, make global warming worse.

The process of turning coal into liquid transportation fuels is not new. It was first adopted on a large industrial scale by the oil-isolated Nazi Germans in World War II, and later by an embargoed apartheid South Africa.

Without carbon capture and storage, liquid coal fuel contributes more than double the total heat-trapping pollution produced by a simply burning conventional petroleum-based fuels. But even when carbon capture systems are added, it is still worse for the environment than regular gasoline. When scientists tell us we need to be making massive, not minuscule, cuts in global warming emissions, it's clear that liquid coal would carry us in the wrong direction.

Liquid coal is also incredibly expensive and resource-intensive to create, with small returns compared to the amount of energy and the immense number of new industrial plants needed to create it. Even setting aside the environmental impacts of coal mining, the water resources needed for this sort of undertaking would be staggering: 4.6 billion gallons per year of liquid fuels from coal would require between 21 and 60 billion gallons of water per year. To give some perspective, 60 billion gallons could fill 90,850 Olympic sized swimming pools.

But here's the problem- just dealing with polluting power plants, the number #1 cause of carbon emissions in the US, doesn't necessarily artificially raise the demand for coal, as Obama's CTL bill did via government subsidies.


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 07:42:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Also... (none / 0)

I don't know if Grist is an authoratative place to look to for China's energy issues, but according to the piece I linked to:
This is why China has reportedly backed off of liquid coal fuels. Instead, they are relying on strong fuel economy standards.
I know the second statement is true (they will have much stricter fuel econ standards in the near future) but I am still looking for an article that confirms that China has in fact turned away from CTL.
Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 07:56:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: O Please! Obama and the Environment (3.00 / 1)

Thanks for this Diary.   I am sure you will get a bunch of heat from coal apologists who think it is a good idea to spend billions of dollars developing a technology that simply will not move us forward in the fight against global warming.

It is the contradiction of his generic statements and his specific actions on this issue that are the crux of my skepticism about the claims of New Politics and "turning the page" from Obama, his campaign and his supporters.

Nothing about his statments, his legislation or his political attempts to split the baby on this issue suggest a new kind of leadership.  They may be an isolated kink in the Obama armor but they reflect the old and failed leadership that we are all looking to move away from.


Don't hate the media, become the media. -- Jello Biafra
by Orlando on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 01:10:14 PM EST

Obama's position on CTL... (none / 0)

... has been consistent.

Despite the recent news reports which hyped the "clarification" angle on this.

And the carbon capture technology that Obama says he supports is not the 119% increase in carbon that people love to throw around. It is based on actual science which suggests that improved technology could achieve the benchmarks Obama laid out. It's not that he just made this benchmark up out of thin air.

But, I love the "Now, there have been claims by the Obamaniacs that their hero had "seen the light" presentation.

It's this kind of respectful debate that avoids the desire to tag supporters of a particular candidate as being naive simpletons that really pushes the American conversation forward.


What's the Point?
by Vermonter on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 01:44:08 PM EST

Re: Obama's position on CTL... (none / 0)

Oh please. The actual lie was that he claimed he would not support CTL if it didn't create 20% less carbon (not in the bill), not whether it would double the output of carbon emissions. The reality is that even with sequestration, CTL still produces more carbon than liquid gasoline. Thus, Obama is, for lack of a better term, lying, or he is just seriously misinformed.

What respect should we have for those who blatantly and cynically continue the Assault on Reason from the Dem side of the isle?


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 07:49:21 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You're missing the update (3.00 / 0)

You're missing the most recent events. Obama said he would vote against the CTL package unless they added his amendment mandating 20% reductions, and when the bill continued to offer endless subsidies without restriction, he voted against it. Both versions of the bill failed in the Senate. This is a summary from the Washington Post on June 24th, 2007:
on Tuesday, [Obama] voted against one proposal to boost liquefied coal and for a more narrowly worded one. Both failed...
Obama voted with the majority against coal-to-liquid incentives proposed by Bunning... He voted for subsidies with language requiring 20 percent lower emissions, which allowed him to show some support for the technology. This, too, failed to pass, with many Republicans taking the industry view against the emissions requirement and many Democrats opposing any coal-to-liquid subsidies.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/con tent/article/2007/06/23/AR2007062301424. html

I don't have any problem with Obama's position. We should be pursuing all feasible avenues of alternative energy. A lot of people I respect like Gov. Brian Schweitzer of Montana have been pushing carbon capture from coal. We all know that ethanol doesn't have a prayer of replacing our domestic fuel supply. Why not sponsor the research and see where it leads?
One Million Strong --- Join up
by psericks on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 02:39:28 PM EST

Re: You're missing the update (none / 0)

Agreed.  I don't understand the position that to pour money into research around carbon capture and sequestration is in anyway a bad thing.  Far from being a bad thing, I think it is something that is necessary if we really look solve this global problem.  People talk of plans which go until 2050.  Well in 2050, we will not be the biggest emitter of carbon in the World, China will.  If our choices of how to best impact China's environmental decision making is between technological innovation or political intervention, I will choose technology.


by DD2 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 03:15:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're missing the update (3.00 / 2)

Read the diary again.  No amount of research is going to make CtL less polluting.  The money is a sop to the coal industry.  

Taxpayer dollars should be used for green energy research.

I thought Obama had moved further on this issue than he obviously has.  How disappointing.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 03:49:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Read the quoted article... (none / 0)

Every single Obama supporter conveniently overlooks the fact that Obama's spokesman said that the Senetor has not shifted his position, or his support for the bill he sponsored.

I got "yelled" at on Daily Kos for claiming that this strategic blindness was the result of "hero worshiping" or on a Fox/Republican style Assault on  Reason, so what then is the cause? Why can't Obama supporters at least hold the man to what he says (or what his proxies say), rather than what is reported he said, or what they wished he said?


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 07:45:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Obama has made some serious progress (none / 0)

on CTL as I said in the DK version of your diary, Alex.

To give the readers a clear picture of all the bills and amdts involved:

1. Bunning's S 154

  1. Bunning's S. 155
  2. Bunning's Amdt SA 1628
  3. Tester's Amdt SA 1614

Obama voted against Bunning's SA 1628, and for the improved Tester's SA 1614. He is still a cosponsor of S 154 and S 155. I have not compared Bunning's amendment to S 154/155 to tell the differences, if any.

If Bunning's amdt is similar to his bills, then Obama has effectively voted against those bills, and so I don't see why he should continue his co-sponsorship of them.


by NuevoLiberal on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 03:36:42 PM EST

Re: Obama has made some serious progress (3.00 / 1)

As a co-sponsor he continues to influence how the bills are shaped.  He has an agenda here to move the coal industry toward capture & sequestration and that government will be a partner with them if they dedicate themselves drastically improving their technologies.  He is constantly misunderstood, just as the Bush administration misunderstood his concern for the people of Southern Illinois.  They counted on him selling out his environmental principles just as the environmentalists count on him to sell out his principles of trying to help the people of the Coal region.  He didn't cave to Bush on the so-called Clear Skies initiative and then turned around and got money for the Industry to research cleaner technologies.  He will continue to pursue that and if the final bill does not satisfy both his principles, he will ultimately vote against it.  


by DD2 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 03:47:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Here's another idea: draft his own version (none / 0)

of the bill, and put it on the senate calendar. And, withdraw from S 154/155. That'd make his stand on CTL very clear cut (and very defensible too: Obama is my #2 choice after Gore).


by NuevoLiberal on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 04:17:07 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Or... (none / 0)

He could just drop his bs about the 20% reduction in carbon emissions below liquid gas, which is impossible. At least if he'd tell the truth it wouldn't piss me off as bad.


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 07:51:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

That is what he should do (none / 0)

but the problem is it would be a pretty complete rejection of a lot of what he has already said and lobbied for.

He already drafted his own version and it stinks.


by okamichan13 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:42:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: O Please! Obama and the Environment (none / 0)

Obama must think we are brain dead.  

CTL is bad. Period.

Edwards is opposed to CTL.  There is a real difference on the environment here.


by littafi on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 03:47:04 PM EST

Re: O Please! Obama and the Environment (none / 0)

Why would CTL with 20% less carbon emissions than oil be a bad thing?


by DD2 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 03:48:15 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: O Please! Obama and the Environment (3.00 / 1)

Not possible and therefore is an illusion to keep supporting the coal industry.

Anyone in the industry and environmentalists know this.


I am an Edwards Democrat. Visit EENR blog for Progressives
by pioneer111 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 03:51:17 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: O Please! Obama and the Environment (3.00 / 1)

That's not true, Pioneer.  The Fischer-Tropic process has been proven to work successfully in capture and sequestration of emissions.  What hasn't been achieved yet is the ability to do it on a commercial level.  That's not a minor thing on either side.  It still will take a big leap forward to make this a practical technology, but it would seem the stakes are high enough to invest in seeing if we can accomplish that, not just pessimistically dismiss it.  


by DD2 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 04:02:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Sure they are. (none / 0)

Just minor, right.

Why give a tax subsidy to this?  

On climate change, Obama's new old politics is more of the same politics that got us into this problem.


by littafi on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 04:20:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Sure they are. (none / 0)

I would think it's been the policy of not exploring every avenue which has gotten us into this mess.  Here's an article for anyone actually wanting to research this area.  The conclusion of the study conducted by the Royal Society of New Zealand is down below. The study was linked by Wikipedia in their article on Fischer-Tropsch:

http://www.rsnz.org/topics/energy/ccmgmt .php#2


It could be that climate change policy has been misled by a plausible fallacy - that the energy sector's problem is best cured in the energy sector.  This possibility is revealed by the emergence of two technologies for long-term disposal of carbon fixed by increased photosynthesis (CCS and bio-char soil amendment).  It appears that (along with the industrial practicability and here-and-now availability of bio-energy systems) the GHG mitigating potential of photosynthesis has been overlooked by a policy-making community that has focused on capping energy sector emissions rather than on a technology-based approach to managing carbon.  The environmental and socio-economic benefits from an integrated approach to managing carbon may turn out to be such that bio-energy comes to dominate the market, with ambient energy technologies (wind, wave and non-photosynthetic solar) having a smaller role than widely envisaged.  However, this possibility should not lead to the putting of all eggs in the bio-energy basket: resistance to rational land use may turn out to be very great; technological progress with biomass production and conversion may prove disappointing; population trends may put greater pressure on land than is currently projected; etc.  But it is clear that a great many ends could be served by doing as much with bio-energy, and world trade in bio-fuels, as may be.  Prima facie it appears eminently negotiable, with energy security for the USA, lowered farm support costs for the EU, and sustainable development with ended energy poverty for many land rich but otherwise impoverished members of G77.


by DD2 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 04:25:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Don't ask taxpayers to pay for (none / 0)

it as Obama does. Coal companies have plenty of money and incentives to pay for their own research.


by littafi on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 04:35:08 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't ask taxpayers to pay for (none / 0)

What is their incentive?


by DD2 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 04:47:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

profit is their incentice. (none / 0)

What else?


by littafi on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 05:17:25 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: profit is their incentice. (none / 0)

If profit was enough incentive to do the research themselves don't you think they would be engaged in it already?  With increased restrictions at home, the Coal Industry will just turn to overseas export of existing technologies to make their profit.  We need a more encompassing and forward thinking approach than just letting the free-market solve our climate crisis.


by DD2 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 06:03:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: profit is their incentice. (none / 0)

forward thinking?!  how is 1760 forward?


John McCain is dishonest
by dereau on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 07:55:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't ask taxpayers to pay for (3.00 / 1)

Plus, does anyone really think that if the coal lobby is successful in getting billions of dollars of subsidies for their science experiment that we would ever be able to stop its implementation even if the results were bad.

This is like Star Wars or some other stupid missile program backed by special interests in congress.   It takes on a life of its own and shifts resources from other valuable projects.

Is there any doubt whatsoever that he got in to this coal pit of a policy because he is from a coal state.  Hence, this is old school politics.  

They all do it, but it makes the New Politics frame even less plausible.  


Don't hate the media, become the media. -- Jello Biafra
by Orlando on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 04:50:06 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't ask taxpayers to pay for (none / 0)

Of course he's from a Coal state and he has been down there and talked to those workers.  It constantly amazes me how some so-called progressives will be for a worker if he hops on a picket line but be so ready to turn their backs on him once he gets off.  Right.  For God sake's how horrible if through Government incentives we actually get big Industry to do the right thing and in doing so protect thousands of jobs at the same time.  It is so precisely Old School politics to be so short sighted both in what successful CTL technology could mean to this country in terms of jobs, the economy, security, and the environment, but also in terms of creating a clean technology to replace the dirty one which will be sold to developing nations where we can't control the politics.


by DD2 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 04:58:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Don't ask taxpayers to pay for (none / 0)

I have heard from folks in the environmental community that Obama shares some of your perspective. (Watch me get railed for not sourcing, but I won't because those people still lobby the senate).

i.e., these are real people's lives down here in Southern IL, you whiny progressives / enviros from your fancy schools and sushi neighborhoods may be right about some of your issues but you have a totally distorted view of reality.   These are real people's lives who work hard to sustain modest lives for their families.

Same arguments were made by the timber companies and their non-unionized workforces in the NW and South.

Same arguments were made by the US auto companies and their colleagues at the UAW.

Coal companies and the UMW are right on board.

But let's get some real sense of perspective and not just some idealized middle class yuppie perspective.  

10s of thousands of people a year die from power plant pollution.

The imapacts of unchecked global warming kind of make the plight of a mere million or so employees seem (even union employees) seem like chicken feed.   I mean, industries have survived change before even if it wasn't easy.   A lot easier to deal with re-tooling an industry and its work force than to deal with a fucking dustbowl in the middle of the country.

So pardon me if I don't look at the principled cowtowing to one industry sector of the survival of the planet as a bold example of new politics.

All the candidates are glibly jumping forth with a goal of getting x percent of reductions by y date but the reality is that attaining even half that through policy changes in the next twelve years (the window the scientists set) seems more than optimistic.  

Why, because of exactly this kind of old politics.   Dingell is Dingell just like Gephardt was Gephardt and stopped anything on CAFE.  Maybe we get something but maybe it is not quite what we need.

We can barely get a clean energy standard through the congress, and in all liklihood whatever it is will be watered down by those who carry the interests of the RECs and other utilities.

Then Obama, Bunning, Tester and Bryd have their say on Coal.

And the corn folks tilt the bio-fuels wagon so far that we miss at least part of the boat there.

HELLO.

We had two planes fly in to the WTC, started in two places and that still doesn't mean that we do what needs to be done on homeland security.

We had dozens of miners die in accidents in just a few months and is their overhaul of the mine safety regs.

Right.

All of this non action because of one interest or another is going to end up digging a whole so deep  that we are seriously risking the future of the planet.

If ever there was a need for new politics it was this, but instead we have old politics.  Coal politics.  Protect a good set of people politics while ignoring the larger dilemma.

Give it up.  He is wrong on this issue.  You can still like him but this is not a debate born out of new politics or turning any kind of page.


Don't hate the media, become the media. -- Jello Biafra
by Orlando on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 07:08:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

You are wrong... (none / 0)

Why don't you try finding something to back up your claim? It is not possible to reduce the carbon emissions created by CTL below liquid gas. I mean even if you do force companies to sequester the byproducts of processing the coal, it remains more polluting than liquid gasoline.


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 07:54:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are wrong... (none / 0)

Why don't you address the article?  It seems your argument boils down to this is what it is now and it is impossible to be any better.  I believe it is worth the investment to see what we can do if it is in a coordinated overall approach to the climate crisis.  You claim the Senator is lying when he says he has always been for it only if it can be more efficient than petroleum-based fuel.  You have absolutely nothing to back up that except a bill which hasn't been written.  Before being so cynical of him, you should read his speeches on the subject and look at his record.  If he has voted in a way to show he's a hypocrite then bring it.  But don't go all hysterical on a bill he hasn't even finished let alone voted on.  If it doesn't satisfy his requirements it won't be the first bill he's sponsored and then voted against.  

His basic approach is Government has a role in partnering with business toward the greater good of the people. It's laid out very well in his speech to the Detroit Economic Club.


by DD2 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 08:15:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are wrong... (none / 0)

Why don't you address the real issue? Can you produce one document that shows that it is even THEORETICALLY possible?


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 08:25:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are wrong... (none / 0)

http://www.rsnz.org/topics/energy/ccmgmt .php#2


by DD2 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:55:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are wrong... (none / 0)

Like I pointed out below, that has nothing to do with CTL, and doesn't show how burning liquefied fuel is theoretically cleaner than liquid gasoline.

Don't worry, it's not that your google search skills are weak. It's hard to find credible sources when you're defending the indefensible.

I bet I know where you could look- Big Coal "think" tanks! Lord knows they'll have a nice lie, or at least a good solid half-truth, prepackaged for you and ready to go!


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 11:52:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are wrong... (none / 0)

I meant "doesn't show how burning liquefied coal is theoretically cleaner than liquid gasoline"


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 11:52:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You are wrong... (none / 0)

If those who say we are reaching the "peak oil" point are right, does anyone really believe that this country would ignore its huge coal deposits? Don't we need the government to support the most environmentally sound approach to using that coal?


by skeptica on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 11:57:14 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I support clean coal tech resaerch... (none / 0)

But that has little to do with CTL, which is absurdly expensive and pollution causing. Coal is already the largest cause of carbon emissions in the US, and anything that could make the production of energy cleaner would be a huge step in the right direction. However, CTL does not do that, since you still are left with a gas that must be burned by our cars/trucks/buses/planes/etc, and which still burns dirtier than gas.

The world is at a crossroads, and Obama and his fans have shown which path they prefer- the one that leads further towards the destruction of our ecosystem.

Justify it all you want- you are all saying a lot more about yourselves than about the merits of this horrendously stupid idea.

Here are a few things that would be better ways to spend government money on (in addition to clean coal technology):

  • solar
  • wind
  • biomass
  • synthetic fuels (those not made with coal, oil shale, or other horrendously carbon emission creating substances)

Any others I'm missing?


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Sat Jul 14, 2007 at 11:12:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I hear you, but (3.00 / 1)

1. I still prefer Obama to Hillary because of other issues, and

2. With a Democratic Senate and House I think he would be unable to get his supposed CTL corporate welfare package through, at least I hope so, even if he is elected President.

There are and always will be some issues with every candidate that I don't like or agree with, this is just one of them.


by End game on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 04:38:45 PM EST

Re: I hear you, but (3.00 / 2)

1.  Glad you have taken on the MSM thinking that there are only two candidates in the race, especially when they are the two who have both voted   the same way on this coal issue.

2.  If you think any Democratic Congress could stop a democratic president from pushing through a pork barrel coal bill you are one of biggest optimists I have ever seen.  


Don't hate the media, become the media. -- Jello Biafra
by Orlando on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 04:52:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I hear you, but (3.00 / 1)

1. I don't follow the MSM other than getting my morning news from NPR and checking cnn.com for headlines now and then, but unless Gore enters the race, Edwards raises his game significantly (especially the fundraising), or Richardson or someone else somehow manages to break into the top tier it will become increasingly a two person race.

2. Maybe you are right - every Repug loves corporate welfare and Obama could always find enough corporatist Dems to make up the difference so on second thoughts he might well get his CTL bill through Congress. But it would still cost him some political capital which he might want to save for other things - I don't think CTL would be a done deal just because he supports it now.


by End game on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 05:18:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

if everyone were like you (3.00 / 1)

Dean never would have broken through in 2003.

I am not a big defender of the Iowa caucuses, as anyone can see from diaries I've written in the past.

But I will say this for Iowans: before making a decision, they tend to hear out all of the candidates instead of letting $$ and MSM tell them who is a "serious" contender.


John McCain: 100 years in Iraq "would be fine with me."
by desmoinesdem on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 05:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

The Obama CTL Challenge! (none / 0)

Ok. I will stop attacking Obama if someone can find one source that claims that it is even a theoretic possibility for CTL to produce 20% less carbon emissions than liquid gasoline. At this point, I'd settle for 5% less.

Anyone? "Mr Wrong" Adam B? Care to use those wonderful research skills on this one?


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 08:13:19 PM EST

Re: The Obama CTL Challenge! (none / 0)

It would be nice if we had something other than candles to light our house.

Nothing will ever replace the Pony Express.

I'm sure glad someone invented the telegraph. We've reached the pinnacle of communications.

People can't fly! What are you thinking?

Go to the moon? You've got to be kidding.


by royce on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 10:58:00 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Obama CTL Challenge! (none / 0)

It would be nice if up was down.

And war was peace.

Etc.

Here's a question, Dr. Who, if we can make the internal combustion engines in our cars and planes burn 20% cleaner with coal, a much "dirtier" energy source, why couldn't we just make regular gasoline burn 20% cleaner?

Some day we may solve the riddle of the internal combustion engine (for the good of Humanity, I pray that we do), but coal isn't going to have a damned thing to do with it.


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 11:49:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: The Obama CTL Challenge! (none / 0)

Alex, you haven't responded to the article I posted above.  But I also want to point out the research which would be involved in making Fischer-Tropsch commercially viable and achieve a 20% reduction involves more than simply coal, it involves refining and perfecting the process of carbon capture and sequestration which could have impact beyond simply coal.  

I don't understand the stridency of some against research in this area.  When we are in a crisis, it would seem like all avenues which show a glimmer of possibility should be explored.  As long as we hold to a standard of what is acceptable in terms of the level of carbon emissions, what is the hesitancy to try?  My God, we waste millions and millions of dollars every day on things which can bring us no lasting good.  To take the gamble on research which could tremendously help the whole world, while not relying on it as the sole solution, seems to be a wise gamble as gambles go.


by DD2 on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 11:32:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Are you serious? (none / 0)

That article talks about creating and managing emissions from bio-mass processes, what is there to respond to?

And it's nice to see that you understand the process so well. The Fischer-Tropsch method involves turning the coal into a liquefied fuel, not the subsequent burning of the fuel in internal-combustion engines and the resulting release of carbon emissions. Sequestration isn't going to work, under any circumstances, in regards to cars/vans/trucks or airplaines, which should be pretty obvious.

To be clear: the 4% increase in carbon emissions is with sequestration at a level that does not currently exist  (as opposed to the over 100% increase we see without sequestration). Which makes the following statement seem all the more uninformed:

the research which would be involved in making Fischer-Tropsch commercially viable and achieve a 20% reduction involves more than simply coal, it involves refining and perfecting the process of carbon capture and sequestration which could have impact beyond simply coal

How about we invest in real solutions to the real problem we're facing (the continued reliance upon burning carbon-based fuels), instead of moving backwards.


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Fri Jul 13, 2007 at 11:45:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Are you serious? (none / 0)

You're talking about synthetic diesel fuel?  It has roughly 30% less carbon emissions than regular gas.  The issue about CTL isn't about once it gets in our gas tanks, the controversy is about the refinement and extraction process.


by DD2 on Sat Jul 14, 2007 at 12:15:24 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Welcome to the Reality Based Community! (none / 0)

This is about two separate processes, both of which cause more carbon emissions than burning liquid gasoline, and which combined more than double emissions. Even if you could sequester all of the CO2 created by the process of turning coal into liquid fuel, which has never been done at the scale we are talking about, and which simply "hides" the carbon for future generations to discover, than you'd still be left with a fuel that, at best, burns dirtier than gasoline.

Try finding a link that shows that liquefied coal burns 30% cleaner than liquid gasoline. I'll help you out on that one- it doesn't exist. You are mixing up synthetic diesel made from bio-masses (prob the cause of your mislinking), which does in fact burn 30% cleaner than gasoline, with liquefied coal, which produces more carbon emissions than gasoline.

Anyway, if you're so right, and I promise you are not, why not try to use that new fangled "hyperlinking" function that's so popular with the kids on these here interwebs these days?


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Sat Jul 14, 2007 at 11:06:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: O Please! Obama and the Environment (none / 0)

You really don't know what you are talking about. Synthetic diesel whether from GTL or CTL or biomass burns cleaner than Petroleum and you shouldn't go around intentionally spreading misinformation.  

http://www.technologyreview.com/read_art icle.aspx?id=16713&ch=biztech


by DD2 on Sat Jul 14, 2007 at 05:01:43 PM EST

Nice try! (none / 0)

Here's a quote from the end of a National Geographic article on the same breakthrough:

Environmental Impact

One thorny issue is the net environmental impact of coal-based synthetic fuels.

According to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, FT fuels are cleaner burning than petroleum-derived products, producing fewer particulates and less dangerous nitrogen oxide.

But as FT fuels burn, they also release carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases.

According to the U.S. Department of Energy's National Renewable Energy Laboratory, coal-based synthetic fuels may produce twice the greenhouse gas emissions of petroleum-based fuels.

Experts say one alternative may be the use of carbon collectors derived from animal waste, plants, and other organic material, which trap carbon from the atmosphere.

Are you done yet?


Future Majority / Young Philly Politics
by Alex Urevick on Sun Jul 15, 2007 at 12:45:16 AM EST
[ Parent ]


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